Well...what's the OFB upto again?

[17H]

Needless to say, the manufacturing process is shoddy to say the least. The cost control systems in place are minimal and primitive. And yet many times countries decide to purchase and encourage domestic industry so as not to be fully dependant on outside supply. Domestic industry; in this case RFi though has shown no inclination to return the favour.

As goodboy_mentor has pointed out. Most infantry soldiers prefer to aim and shoot single or 3 round bursts rather than let go of the full magazine, even if the option is there, as in AK47/ 56. It is only untrained militia and terrorists on do or die mission who do so. 2-3 days back news media was full of stories of how even terrorrist's who have been trained professionally are using controlled and well laid out pattern of fire.

Significantly Pakistanis lost the battle for Siachin, when their license made G3's got jammed up in extreme cold. At that time the humble SLR did the job for the army. Hastily airlifled ZSU-23's were also quite helpfull.

Regards

[Ace_doc]

Considering that World war 2 sten rip offs are still with the govt agencies i consider the insas a major step fwd. All Ak fanatics should realise that a 30 rd magazine can be expended in a flash by a jittery firer.Aks are also prone to stovepipe jams. In the end the weapon does not kill, the man does.

[guncrazy]

It either seems that much of the guys on this forum belong to OFB praising INSAS, use it to beleive it at least there are 10 manufacturing defects how can somebody deny it, in last 15 years the modification that took place has changed its name to four models INSAS 1A, 1B1, 1A1, 1B1 and you guys talk about auto sorry still the modification is left and lot needs to be done if you are a firer just hold INSAS in your hand and cock it you will come to know how many muscles are required to put a round in chamber and that is life saving personnel weapon of INDIAN ARMED FORCES

[17H]

INSAS is definitely not the best in its class weapon, far from it. But in hands of a capable well trained man, it is as good as any.

[guncrazy]

sorry boss you think I commented on it without training and use

[penpusher]

Can some one post a link of the CAG report on the INSAS.I believe the number of flaws pointed out almost equals the number of parts in it.Also the Indian Small Arms System(INSAS) is not complete as the IOF is still to provide a carbine.

For people who are hell bent upon calling the INSAS a good rifle,you are doing a dis-service to our brave jawans who certainly need a reliable rifle which the INSAS is not.

As for the gentleman who claimed that the Ak is prone to jams,I would like to say that I have never experienced any stove pipe jams in the ones that I have fired.In fact the AK is known for being one of the most reliable battle rifles around.But I am sure the IOF made clones would belie that well earned reputation.

[goodboy_mentor]

I agree with Guncrazy, that there are many defects in INSAS(172 parts if I can recall correctly). AK 47 has kept its popularity intact for over 50 yrs, even though it is not a very accurate rifle at longer ranges, due to a simple fact, that it has a simple design. Simplicity of design led to following benefits:
1)Low cost of manufacture
2)Because it is simple in design, it is reliable(A very important feature for any gun)

[Ace_doc]

What is interesting is where the gent laid his hands on an original Ak ? How many mags have u expended at a single go? You try iron sights at 500 mtrs and then try to say that Ak is better?
No denying the fact that the AK is an icon , all i want to say is that the INSAS is no push over . you cant blame the tool for the vagaries of the user. better weapons mean more money which the govt dosent fork out. the INSAS is a good effort by our OFB. What is needed is more funds for R & D .Till we can buy G36ks or XM 90 this is a good weapon which can be improved. put a reflex sight on it and see the fun. why not a day scope and sound supressor. all this needs moolah which is not forthcoming.

[BJL]

Can some one post a link of the CAG report on the INSAS.I believe the number of flaws pointed out almost equals the number of parts in it.Also the Indian Small Arms System(INSAS) is not complete as the IOF is still to provide a carbine.

Hey Penpusher, here's a link to the CAG report. http://www.cag.gov.in/html/reports/defe ... /index.htm and here's one to another general audit of OFB. http://www.cag.gov.in/html/reports/defe ... /index.htm

When I used to live in Mhow, I shot frequently at the AMU's range and got to see the INSAS in use quite often. The few times I fired it, it worked ok. But for the guys using it constantly it was quite problematic. Almost all of them related to poor machining, bad components and the lack of any QC.

[mundaire]

Ace_Doc, Guncrazy is a serving officer in the Indian Army and I don't doubt his hands on experience on either the AK or INSAS platform...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[penpusher]

BJL,

Thanks for the links.Makes for very depressing reading.I have not been able to find the last years audit report,but from what I remember,there were something like a dozen defects pointed out in the INSAS.

[fantumfan2003]

guncrazy

Does the Indian Army have a doctrine / bias against giving full auto weapons and high capacity mag weapons (30+ rounds) to its infantry ? I guess not but would like to know if possible.

Manish

sorry boss you think I commented on it without training and use

[BJL]

Yeah. Painful to go through. Especially stuff like "Ordnance Factories could not develop mark-II ball ammunition even after a lapse of nine years" or about the crores wasted on useless "developments."

[guncrazy]

No denying the fact that the AK is an icon , all i want to say is that the INSAS is no push over . you cant blame the tool for the vagaries of the user. better weapons mean more money which the govt dosent fork out. the INSAS is a good effort by our OFB. What is needed is more funds for R & D

I don't know how this statement is being made, the modifications being done each year is costing the govt "HELL LOT OF MONEY" and the weapon made is not for plinking on tin cans, (check the effective range of INSAS) AKs are meant for spraying bullets and they are very effective I am not suppose to make comments on these issues but my stomach churns when people just surfing the net start to make comments, In an Armament conference someone senior who was involved in development of INSAS said they gave it orange colour coz after firing the temperature of the barrel was found 2deg less when compared to the black colour, I am shocked to see an Einstein in my country to whom the Armament companies never paid attention ( change of colour to black was one of the recommendation made at Infantry School ) just compare the amount of money blown since early 90s till date, and Ace_Doc tell me a indigenous service weapon we have, none, all are copied and on TOT (transfer of technology) even INSAS, please ask for more funds and give the fighters something worth that they can protect you and your families, and if you are in forces more you pray that you never get posted to CIOPs.

-- 20 Apr 2009, 07:43 --

guncrazy

Does the Indian Army have a doctrine / bias against giving full auto weapons and high capacity mag weapons (30+ rounds) to its infantry ? I guess not but would like to know if possible.

Manish

sorry boss you think I commented on it without training and use

The Army has been using AKs, LMGs and other SA where the capacity of mags are 30 and even belted weapons are also being used which have larger capacity these have auto catches too

[Ace_doc]

Buddy have already done my CIOPS . i wud rather carry an insas than an AK.