Colt police positive snub nosed

[vinay singh]

Hi guys, sorry couldnt reply earlier..I stand nowhere as compared in knowledge or experiance of my senior members.Therefore I would humbly like to put two points hoping that it would not offend my seniors
1.I would not use the words"colt never made this "
2There is a difference between catalouged production, special production runs, special orders.
Regards
Vinay

[vinay singh]

guns511.jpeg

Guys this is a 1970 police positive in .32 (colt dropped special from the name)
I can also provide the add of the source.so it resolves that pp was made in 1970 also albiet in maybe hundreds maybe.
With colt u cant be sure
Regards
Vinay

[TC]

guns511.jpeg

Guys this is a 1970 police positive in .32 (colt dropped special from the name)
I can also provide the add of the source.so it resolves that pp was made in 1970 also albiet in maybe hundreds maybe.
With colt u cant be sure
Regards
Vinay

Vinay did you have a clear look at the picture you have posted ? The left side of the barrel very clearly says POLICE POSITIVE in one line... and .38 SPECIAL CTG. in the next line. For your information there was no such caliber (at least not to my knowledge) called .32 SPECIAL, if that is what you are tried to say when you wrote "Colt dropped special from the name."
None of us in this forum have any intention of saying that your revolver was "never made by Colt". It seems you completely miss the point here. All I tried to say is that the design, the configuration and the markings of your revolver do not suggest that it is a fourth model police positive.

Hi guys, sorry couldnt reply earlier..I stand nowhere as compared in knowledge or experiance of my senior members.Therefore I would humbly like to put two points hoping that it would not offend my seniors
1.I would not use the words"colt never made this "
2There is a difference between catalouged production, special production runs, special orders.
Regards
Vinay

Now coming to your points.
Colt happens to an arms manufacturing company and its products - by products I mean each and every weapon including "special production runs" and "special orders" you have mentioned - have been meticulously researched and chronicled for posterity at some point of time or the other. In fact, Colt and Winchester still happen to be the most popular subjects among gun enthusiasts and researchers in the US and other countries. Do you know that Colt made a special .38 revolver called the Fitz special out of the Police Special and later the Detective Special. To give you an example of how extensively each and every "SPECIAL ORDERS" and "SPECIAL PRODUCTIONS" Colts have been looked into I am putting up a report on the Fitz Specials carried by The American Rifleman in April 2012. This article appears to be a reprint because I have copy of the original article published about two decades ago. Go through the minute details and see for yourself how each and every special weapon has been mentioned by serial number. This should give help you understand that every Colt has been "catalogued" someway or the other. By the way, please do not think your revolver is a Fitz Special. This is only to serve academic interest.

The Fitz Special
Some of the ideas that J. Henry FitzGerald applied to revolvers might be imprudent today, but “Fitz” Specials paved the way for the modern snubnose.
By Gary Paul Johnston




Born in Manchester, N.H., around 1870, John Henry FitzGerald was a large, heavily built man with big hands, setting him apart from many others. During his younger days, FitzGerald, or “Fitz,” as he was affectionately known, spent much of his time as a bare-knuckles prizefighter long before boxing gloves were used.

Developing an interest in firearms at an early age, FitzGerald became a champion pistol shot, and he developed good relations with police officers he met. Fitz preferred Colt revolvers, especially the New Service, to all others and became quite adept at improving their actions by adjusting springs and smoothing and modifying internal parts. By 1918 he had become quite well known and was hired as a spokesman by Colt Firearms.
Although FitzGerald had been primarily a competitive target shooter, his association with law enforcement circles generated an interest in defensive revolvers, especially those to be carried concealed. FitzGerald began to develop a 2-inch-barreled defensive revolver that would (unofficially) bear his name and that would revolutionize the concealed-carry revolver. It would be given the nickname “Fitz Special.”

There may be no exact record remaining as to when FitzGerald began developing his idea, but it was during the early to mid-1920s that he began working on the .45 Colt New Service and other Colt revolvers. The hallmark modifications included shortening the barrel to 2 inches, shortening the ejector, re-stamping the caliber on the left side of the barrel, installing a lower front sight, shortening and rounding the butt, removing the hammer spur, doing a superb double-action trigger job, rounding all sharp edges and most notable of all, removing the forward portion of the trigger guard. Aspects of this latter feature that are, by today’s standards, negative, have been thoroughly argued and will not be covered here.

In his book "Shooting," published in 1930, FitzGerald outlines why he chose the 2-inch barrel. His reasons included ease of carry, speed of deployment, failure to catch on close obstacles such as a steering wheel, effectiveness at typical gunfight distance and, interestingly, reliability—he reasoned that despite the questionable quality of ammunition of the time it would be next to impossible for a bullet to get stuck in a 2-inch barrel!

Sometime before 1926, FitzGerald created a Fitz Special using a Colt .38 Spl. Police Positive. In 1927, Colt introduced its Detective Special revolver, the first 2-inch “snubnose” double-action revolver. This gun was an instant success, and it made FitzGerald’s job of modifying the gun much easier.

Because the Colt “VP” (verified proof) mark was stamped on the left side of the trigger guard where it meets the frame, this mark was obliterated in removing the front of the guard and re-shaping the frame. Thus, the “VP” was generally re-stamped on the frame beneath the serial number under the cylinder crane, requiring the cylinder to be opened to see it. However, at least two known Fitz Special Detective Special revolvers had the “VP” restamped at the factory on the right rear of the trigger guard where it meets the frame, and also on Official Police Fitz Special, No. 624285, so this location may have become standard with Colt’s small-frame revolvers.

One such Detective Special, No. 412567 was shipped on Feb. 9, 1934, to Lawlor Sporting Goods in Lincoln, Neb., for Capt. Paul Shively, of the Lincoln Police Dept. His name was then engraved on the right side of the gun, which also bears Colt mother of pearl stocks. The letter from Beverly Hanes, of Colt Archives LLC, records “Special Work: Cutaway.” The only headings seen on any Colt letters regarding Fitz Special revolvers are “Special Work,” or “Special Features,” and the details vary from gun to gun depending on what was recorded at the time. Of particular interest is that the hammer spur of No. 412567 is not removed, the only such Fitz Special known. The number of guns in the shipment was two. What the other gun was we may never know.

Another documented Fitz Special Colt Detective Special, and the most famous of this version, was No. 418162, shipped to Charles Lindberg on Oct. 9, 1934, following the kidnap murder of his infant son. The location of a “VP” on this gun is unknown. Another authenticated Fitz Special Colt Detective Special is pictured on p. 181 of Timothy J. Mullin’s excellent book, "Colt’s New Service Revolver" from Collector Grade Publications. That gun was shipped from Colt in 1932 and has ivory stocks, but no further information is provided. However, the “VP” stamp is clearly visible on the right rear of the trigger guard.

Mullins also documents three other Fitz Special revolvers in his book. All are New Service Models and bear serial numbers 335402, 349064 and 352371, but the calibers are not listed. Number 335402 was shipped to the Des Moines Police Dept., probably in the late 1930s. The other two were shipped to Joseph A. Lorch, Colt’s agent in Washington D.C., in 1940, and are identical. The Des Moines P.D. gun has no ejector head and has more rounded corners.

Another Fitz Special New Service revolver is fairly well documented. It belonged to my late friend, Col. Rex Applegate. Having known Col. Applegate for only the last seven years of his life, I learned of the gun in question only shortly before he passed on, and this was from my good friend, the late Chuck Karwan. A long time close friend of Col. Applegate, Karwan reported that FitzGerald converted this Fitz Special from Col. Applegate’s own Model 1917 Colt. It is engraved, “To Rex from Fitz.”
More recently, another longtime friend, American Rifleman Field Editor Wiley Clapp, told me he saw and examined Col. Applegate’s gun not long before he passed on. Clapp relates that, during this meeting he showed Col. Applegate a custom rendition of the Fitz Special made for him by gunsmith Andy Horvath and, on testing the gun’s action, Col. Applegate remarked, “That’s better than my Fitz,” to which Clapp replied, “Wanna’ trade?” He said the colonel leaned back and laughed.

Also of interest is that, years ago, Karwan was allowed to spend several days at the (then) Colt Historical Division to go through the records of Colt New Service sales. In addition to finding many interesting New Service revolvers in unusual calibers (including two in .41 Spl.), he found records of a number of Fitz Special New Service revolvers, but Karwan’s records are unavailable for examination.

Questions have come up as to whether or not Fitz applied his “Special” treatment to semi-automatic pistols. Captain Manuel T. “Lone Wolf” Gonzaullas, a legendary Texas Ranger from 1920 to 1951, carried a pair of gold, engraved Colt commercial .45 ACP M1911 pistols now on display in the Texas Ranger Museum in Waco, Texas. These two pistols had their trigger guards almost completely cut away and are sometimes referred to as Fitz Special pistols. While such modifications may have been inspired by FitzGerald’s work on revolvers, there is no evidence that the pistols were modified by him. Sheriff James E. “Bill” Decker, of Dallas, Texas, owned another pair of Colt M1911 pistols closely resembling those of Gonzaullas, but these guns also have no known connection to FitzGerald.

Because all Fitz Specials were custom guns modified at Colt by FitzGerald instead of factory production, we’ll never know exactly how many Fitz Specials were made, and only educated guesses give a clue. Karwan estimated total production at about 40; Wiley Clapp put it at 50 guns and Robert Q. Sutherland and R.L. Wilson put the number at 100. Even at twice that number, the Fitz Special remains one of the most elusive Colt firearms in the world. Incidentally, only the guns made by FitzGerald himself are genuine “Fitz Specials.” All the rest are mere copies or fakes.

During research for this article, five additional “Fitz Special” Colt revolvers were uncovered, all with either documentation from Colt Archives LLC, or having other equally important historic records, with some being auctioned by Greg Martin, James D. Julia or Rock Island Auctions complete with photographs, as follows: 1924, Colt .38 Army Special, No. 505844, nickel-plated (recovered from Clyde Barrow’s car after he and Bonnie Parker were killed by police); 1938, Colt Official Police, No. 624285, blue;1938, .45 Colt New Service, No. 337309, blue; 1939, Colt Police Positive, .38 Special, No. 461175, blue. Pennsylvania State Police; and, 1940, Colt Detective Special, .38 Spl., No. 462217, Buffalo, N.Y.

Additional guns labeled as “Fitz Specials” are also pictured in the reprint of FitzGerald’s book Shooting but, without details, so while there is little doubt they are genuine, they will not be listed here. Nonetheless, another extremely interesting special-order Colt with a probable connection to J. H. Fitzgerald was found on www.ColtAutos.com. A 2 1/2-inch-barreled .32 Pocket Positive, No. 108963, Colt reports this gun being shipped in 1923, and under Special Features, lists “cutoff hammers” (there were six guns in the shipment). While the trigger guard is unaltered, the gun’s “bobbed” hammer appears exactly as those worked over by FitzGerald.

So far we have listed 11 documented Fitz Specials, plus Col. Rex Applegate’s New Service. We can add one more to the list. Having known this gun in the same large gun collection since 1964, I never paid a great deal of attention to it, but had seen in on many visits and had even shot it on one occasion. There was never a doubt that it was a Fitz Special, as the “VP” mark is stamped on the frame under the crane.

There is an interesting story of this gun connected to a police lieutenant from the state of Oregon. A letter from Colt Archives LLC verified that this gun was a .45 Colt New Service, No. 349449, with a 2-inch barrel, blue finish, grips not listed, but with Special Features, as follows: “Please note that the trigger guard and … rod are were away … and the hammer spur was filed off. In addition, the revolver was fitted with a square butt configuration and a lanyard swivel.” No other Fitz Special is known to have been shipped with a lanyard swivel, and few were requested with a square butt, as both seem a contradiction to the intended purpose.

This gun now has a very old nickel finish that appears to be factory original, except that the swivel stud was cut off at the butt and is also nickel-plated. The mother of pearl stocks fit perfectly, suggesting that they are factory, but there is no notation that the gun was returned to Colt for rework.

Shipped on Nov. 9, 1938, this Fitz Special was delivered to Momsen-Dunnegan-Ryan Co., El Paso Texas, for E.C. Seals Service, of Prescott, Ariz. A number of Colt firearms was shipped to Momsen-Dunnegan-Ryan Co., but this company also made the steel windmills we still see on many old ranches and E.C. Seals Service specialized in photography. How the Oregon police connection happened we may never know.

Renewed interest in the Fitz Special is due largely to a number of magazine articles written about these elusive, rare guns during the past few years, and the reproductions of them it has spawned. More information will certainly be forthcoming, as the search is far from over.



ENDS

[vinay singh]

Dear fellow member, it was never my intention to offend anyone for that matter and if I have I apologise .the police positive I posted was 1970 and all the time I was thinking that it was discontinued in the 40s.secondly I have read the article u have posted about the fitz guns with sawed barrel and bobbed hammer.and yes I know my revolver is not fitz.any ways I apologise again and thank you for sharing with me your knowledge.
Regards
Vinay

[TC]

Dear fellow member, it was never my intention to offend anyone for that matter and if I have I apologise .the police positive I posted was 1970 and all the time I was thinking that it was discontinued in the 40s.secondly I have read the article u have posted about the fitz guns with sawed barrel and bobbed hammer.and yes I know my revolver is not fitz.any ways I apologise again and thank you for sharing with me your knowledge.
Regards
Vinay

Vinay please try and understand that you have in no way offended anyone on this forum, not me at least, and you have no reasons to seek apology.
This is just a discussion and members of IFG discuss everything relating to guns to widen their knowledge and share experience. I do the same.
There is no dispute over the fact that your revolver is a Colt and the caliber is .32. But is it a fourth edition Police Positive as The Doc suggested ?
If the answer is yes, why is there no evidence of your revolver anywhere. That is the sole question. When I am saying "your revolver" I am referring to everything starting from configuration, design, shape, caliber, markings et al.
But at the end of the day its your weapon and you have every right to call it by whatever name it comes with. The matter should end here I guess.
By the way Fitz Specials did not come with "SAWED BARREL". They came with factory fitted two inch barrels, the signature of the snub nose.

Cheers
TC

[BowMan]

Very well explained TC and I must admit again theres good attention to detail there. But I believe we at IFG must investigate this matter to final conclusion.

Vinay can you please post close ups of any markings/letterings on your revolver making sure they are readable. You can try rubbing some chalk powder on the letterings to bring out the ones that are difficult to capture on camera. Can you also show close up pictures of the cylinder?

[Sakobav]

Great gun congrats in heirloom and nice informative discussion amigos

[Doc Bhatta]

Lovely weapon vinay singh ! Thanks for the pic .

[Lanceman]

TC, what a lovely piece on Fitz weapons, really enjoyed it. You are really well read on this.

[TC]

Thanks Lanceman, my dad always wished I had given the same attention to text books

TC

[brihacharan]

Thanks Lanceman, my dad always wished I had given the same attention to textbooks
TC

Don't worry TC - There's an old saying - "Walls do not a prison make"...
Likewise books do not make someone more intelligent or wise - It's wisdom harvested through years of experience & interest in a subject that's close to one's heart
Academic knowledge helps you to get verbose and deliver armchair wisdom...Q..E..D
Thanks for enlightening those of us ignorant yet inquisitive
Briha

[manubrar67]

Dream gun ... @vinaysingh
How much u paid for it ... And how much is this worth now pls let us know...
Yea i know i cant afford but i just want to know more about this beauty.....

[Lanceman]

Hey TC at the risk of hijacking the thread.... so did mine. my grand mom even told me that i would not pass by keeping books under my pillow....

all the same, admire your detailed knowledge.

[TC]

Don't worry TC - There's an old saying - "Walls do not a prison make"...
Likewise books do not make someone more intelligent or wise - It's wisdom harvested through years of experience & interest in a subject that's close to one's heart
Academic knowledge helps you to get verbose and deliver armchair wisdom...Q..E..D
Thanks for enlightening those of us ignorant yet inquisitive
Briha

Thanks Brihaji. I just hate the armchair ...

Regards
TC

Hey TC at the risk of hijacking the thread.... so did mine. my grand mom even told me that i would not pass by keeping books under my pillow....

all the same, admire your detailed knowledge.

Hi Lanceman, you will be surprised to see how far hijacking can sometimes go
Well, you certainly made your grand mom very proud..

Cheers
TC

[timmy]

Gentlemen:

I've just gotten around to viewing this thread, and would make this point:

As Doc pointed out in a quote from the High Road, the Colt Police Positive (Introduced in 1905) is a different gun from the Police Positive Special (Introduced in 1907).

Both guns are marked "Police Positive" on the barrel. The difference is that the Police Positive Special has a cylinder that is 1/4" inch longer, which was intended for use with the longer .38 Special and .32-20 cartridges. When the Police Positive was discontinued in 1947, Colt had already begun to use the longer Police Positive Special to chamber the shorter .32 New Police and .32 S&W cartridges the year before.

The original Police Positive Specials were marked "Police Positive .38 Special" or Police Positive Special .32-20 W.C.F. But the thing that separates this model from the Police Positive is not the marking on the barrel or the box it was sold in. It is the length of the cylinder.

The version Mr. Vinay Singh has, is thus a Police Positive. Most of the other pictures in this thread are of Police Positive Specials, with the longer cylinder.

As Mr. Singh's revolver has a barrel shroud, his is clearly a 4th Issue, which in the Police Positive version, came out in the late 70s and was only made for a few years.

Regarding another issue, the large screw on the right hand side and above and in front of the trigger on Colt D & I frame double action revolvers is not a side plate screw. The side plate on these revolvers is on the left side. The right side of the revolver is the solid side. On some D & I frame Colts, the screw is used to hold the stud that retains the crane into the frame of the gun. In the crane's pivot, there is a groove into which the stud fits, allowing the crane to swing out of the frame, but not to slide forward and out of the frame. Other models, including Police Positive Specials, Detective Specials, and Pythons do not have a stud with a locking screw (an arrangement that looks somewhat like a figure 8 ), but have a screw that holds in a spring and a crane lock detent which serves the same function.

I have no authoritative source for this, but I have read that the Police Positive Special frame was "strengthened" (compared to that of its parent's, the Police Positive) in order to handle the more powerful .38 Special and .32-20 rounds. Likewise, I note that the Army Special, Officer's Model (both of which I own) and the Official Police use the older method of retaining the crane, but the Python uses the same method with the single screw. My opinion is that the additional strength needed in the frame to handle more powerful cartridges was obtained by going to the single screw, which allowed less machining and cutting to go on in a thin part of the frame.

As a bit of trivia for those who care about such things, the Police Positive introduced, along with the big New Service model of 1905, the Schmidt Galand action to the Colt lineup. This design rested on developments in Europe, beginning as far back as the 1860s, to which Colt added a bar that rose when the trigger was pulled, which then unblocked the hammer, allowing it to fall on a loaded chamber. Previous designs in Europe relied on the rebound lever to prevent this, however, this was not reliable in preventing accidental discharge.

With the introduction of this hammer block, the Police Positive was introduced, replacing the older New Police model. It is said that the first New Police model, serial #1, was submitted to Teddy Roosevelt, himself, when he served as head of the New York City Police Board. The entire lockwork was changed in this small revolver size, however, the "Positive" designation was noted because of the introduction of the hammer block, making the gun very safe.

The introduction of this Schmidt Galand action was to carry Colt through to the magnificent Python and its smaller brother, the Diamondback. Newer locks are now used, but the old mechanical design is still a high point for smoothness and reliability in the DA revolver world. Gun lovers and owners the world over appreciate the smoothness and sophistication of the Python.

BTW, Mr. Vinay Singh, that is one sweet looking handgun you have there!