Indians For Guns

How SIG's are made:

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xl thanks a lot.we can't imagine such perfection here!

dr.jayakumar wrote:xl thanks a lot.we can't imagine such perfection here!

i differ with you dr kumar... once you have a cnc vertical machining centre , and a cnc lathe . the skill of the work man is at par with any body around the globe. just selection of proper metal and a proper cad cam design will do the work in conjunction of the precision tooling available in india these days very frequently and easily.

the most important feature rests with the tampering or the heat treatment of variosu parts and reworking afterwards.

the iof people have lot of old fashioned machines as well as cnc state of the art machines but tis not the machine it is the spirit and the heart behind the machine that brings out marvels...

since i have more than 7 kinds of cnc machines and more than 4 kinds of different cam softwares, So i see no big issue if the guns making is seen with a element of astonishment

Interesting Video! Many thanks for sharing xl_target!

Very nice.Thanks for sharing. BTW,do you won and/shot any of the Sig-Sauer pistols?How do you rate them?


Best-
Vikram

Vikram,
In trying to answer your questions, I'm afraid that I have been a little long winded.

I have fired the P225 (9mm), P6 (9mm), P220 (.45 ACP), P228 (9mm), P226 (.40).

I own a P225 and I gave my P6 to my daughter. They are essentially identical.

The German police force specified three pistols when they went away from the PPK. Some of the lessons they learned, especially after the 1972 Munich Olympics hostage crisis, was that they needed a larger caliber and more firepower. In answer to their specifications, they were offered three pistols; the Walther P5, the Sig Sauer P6 and the H&K P7. They purchased all three. However, the pistol purchased in the largest number was the Sig Sauer P6. All three pistols were chambered in 9mm Luger. This SIG Sauer pistol was later offered on the civilian market with a lighter hammer spring, a standard hammer and Van Stavenhagen (dot-bar) sights (with three dot Siglite night sights as an option). This model was called the P225 and has since been discontinued because the P239 offers the same features in a more compact pistol.
When they retired these pistols, something like 30,000 of them, they were purchased by importers and resold in the US. Many of these guns had holster wear but like most police pistols, they were barely used inside. I purchased one of the P6's. My daughter liked my P6 so I gave it to her when she got her permit to carry. Shortly after that I was lucky enough to find a P225 at a local gun shop. The pistol is basically a P220 with a shortened slide and a grip. This gives one a relatively compact 9mm pistol with 8+1 capacity. It is a double action/single action pistol which means that the first shot has a long stiffer pull (8 lbs to 12 lbs) and subsequent shots after the hammer is cocked by the slide are only about 3 lbs to 5 lbs. The gun has no manual safety. The long heavy double action pull is your safety. There is also a metal tab that locks firing pin movement. When the trigger is pulled all the way back, a lever pushes the firing pin safety out of the way allowing it to move forward when struck by the hammer. There is decocker that allows you to drop the hammer safely on a loaded chamber.

Generally the SIG pistols have been DA/SA handguns. The classic SIG Sauer pistol has an anodized Aluminum alloy frame and a folded (pressed) carbon steel slide. The slide was pressed into shape from a single piece of sheet metal with the nose piece being welded on. This welding is so exceptional that it is impossible to see from the outside. The steel slide rides on the alloy rails of the frame. These handguns were made in Germany and imported here. These had matching serial numbers on the frame, slide and barrel. The slides were not blued but finished with a proprietary black finish called "Nitron". No folded slide guns were made in the US. Sig's motto at the time was "To Hell and Back Reliability". This was used in many of their ads.
Today the slides are machined out of a solid piece of stainless steel (like the video) and they are made both here in the US and in Germany. Many SIG aficionados swear that the folded slide models balance better with the stainless slides making the guns top heavy. I really haven't noticed that.


My impressions: keep in mind that these are my impressions
P6/P225
All the SIG's that I have fired have been accurate, very reliable and extremely durable. If I have a negative, I would say that the finish on the Nitron finished pistols tends to wear rather quickly. As an Indian, I have a much smaller hand than most Americans and the P225 fits me like it was made for me. I am able to access all the controls without shifting my grip. Using this gun in competition, I was able to recover from each shot very quickly and make accurate, closely spaced double taps. Many people, when they hold a P225 for the first time will say ; "Ahh"! It just fits. As one poster on SigForum said; "P225-like pulling Excalibur from the stone". These are both folded slide guns and still in demand, even though they have been eclipsed by the P239 and other guns. P225 are not that easy to find as most people who have them, won't sell them. P6's are a little easier to find but the price has doubled since they were first offered on the surplus market.

P226
Full size gun, great to shoot, fast target reacquisition after the first shot. Relatively low recoil but I wouldn't want to carry the weight around all day.

P220
Smooth and low recoil for a .45.

P228
The double stack magazine cause the grip to be wider than the P225. Controls are a little harder to reach without shifting the grip. Other wise it is very similar in size to the P225. Not as ergonomic for me.

All of these were very accurate and had no failures when I was using them. Keep in mind that these were all service pistols but the accuracy for me was better than your average service pistol.



The current SIG Sauer pistol line up consists of:
P210- 9mm - This was SIG's first pistol (before the collaboration with JP Sauer and Sohn). This was the Swiss army's standard pistol for many years. They are renowned for their accuracy and very much in demand by shooters. Their value seems to preclude their being used in competition anymore. Sig has brought back this pistol now as the P210 Legend.
P220 - .45 ACP. - Sig Sauer's original big bore pistol.
P226 - 9mm, .40 S&W and 357 SIG. This was a very popular pistol for SIG. When the fabled Seal Team 6 under Dick Marcinko had problems with the issue Beretta's, they evaluated a bunch of pistols but chose the SIG P226 as one of their standard weapons. A pistol similar to the one used by the Seals is offered to civilians as the "P226 Navy". I have read reports on SIGForum that one issue P226, used for training, went over a quarter of a million rounds before it suffered a major failure!
P229 - 9mm, .40 S&W, .357 SIG. This was the successor of the P228 with a railed frame and a stainless slide.
P232 - .380 ACP - This is a compact blow-back pistol
P238 - .380 ACP - This is SIG's Colt Mustang lookalike in .380 ACP
P239 - 9mm, .40 S&W, .357 SIG. This is a compact sized pistol (See Cottage Cheese's avatar)
P250 - 9mm, .40 S&W, .357 SIG, .45 ACP. Polymer framed pistol offered with many different frame and slide combinations to make a pistol that fits your needs. Double Action Only
P290 - 9mm. Ultra-compact polymer framed pistol. Double Action only.
SP2022 - Polymer full sized DA/SA pistol renowned for its smooth trigger.
1911- 1911 clones
P522 - .22 LR. This offers the look and feel of SIG's 556 rifle with a shorter barrel and no butt-stock.
P556 - 5.56 X 45 NATO. This is a short barreled 556 rifle without the butt-stock.

Note: Each model is offered in many different configurations; like the "combat", the "elite", a two tone version, etc. The P226 X5 that ckkalyan fired is in almost a different category by itself. It is almost a custom pistol renowned for its smooth single action trigger, its accuracy and it reliability in competition.

2011 SIG Catalog. Warning! large - 38 Megs

XL,

You are a legend!Many thanks for taking the time to type out such an educative text.

I like to get my hands on a P210 one day.

Best-
Vikram

Vikram,

IOF also uses GFM machines ( made in Steyr and not made by Steyr ) for hammer forging barrels.

Hello XL, How would you rate the sig 266 against the G-19 and the Cz-75 in terms of reliability and ease of target acquisition during rapid fire..

XL: Thanks so much for your run down on Sigs and Sig-Sauers. It is very helpful, because I live pretty much in the stone age and have not kept up with modern pistol development like I should have.

I do have a question for you: I have never fired any of these new pistols. Part of the reason is due to my luddite mentality and devotion to my 1911. When I was younger, that's what I carried. From that, I went to carrying my .38 Detective Spl. Now, I generally carry my little CZ 50. In some instances, I might carry my CZ 52 on the road for a long road trip, due to the peculiar capabilities of the 7.62 x 25 round.

However, with regards to a 9mm carry weapon, I would very much appreciate your take on comparing the Sigs and Sig-Sauers with other 9mms, like Glock, H&K, and CZ. How do you think of these with respect to the ability to go bang and deliver the goods under any and all circumstances?

I feel very guilty here, because I am asking a lot of you. This is because I trust your experience and would value your word -- tho this doesn't ameliorate the task I've asked of you, if you would get the chance to write up something about this.

Anyway, thanks for your rundown and please, in the future, don't worry a bit about the lengthy nature of posting -- the longer, the better!

Jonah and Timmy,
Rating pistols is like rating cars, tractors, religions, politics, etc. Everyone has their personal preferences and sometimes arguments can get pretty heated. So let me say that the observations penned below only apply to me and reflect my personal feelings. Someone else might have a viewpoint and/or experience that is diametrically opposed to mine. If so, that's great! One must use what fits and works best for oneself. What works for one person might not work for another.

While it is always possible to get a lemon now and then, the standard Glock's, The CZ75 variants and the H&K pistols are all known for their durability and reliability. I haven't fired any of the newer H&K pistols but the now discontinued H&K P7 (which I did fire) shoots very well. However, the P7 with its unique squeeze cocking mechanism can get very hot after 50 to 75 rapid fire rounds. For a defensive pistol, this is immaterial because you aren't going to be carrying that much ammo on you anyway. As far as pointability and accuracy, it's right up there at the top. Not having any personal experience with the newer H&K's, I can't really comment on the ergonomics but from what I have read, the people who have them, really like them.

I have fired the Glock 17, Glock 19 and the Glock 22 (.40 S&W). From a mechanical standpoint, I could not find anything wrong with either of them. However, I have a problem with the squarish grip and the grip angle. When I draw and present the gun, the sights don't automatically line up for me. Keep in mind that newer Glocks have replaceable grip inserts that may mitigate this problem somewhat. One advantage of the Glock type of pistol is that every shot is fired with the same pull. There is no need to be aware of the transition from double action to single action like a DA/SA pistol. One disadvantage is that if you get a light strike, you don't get a second strike option like a DA/SA pistol. I should hasten to add that this usually isn't a problem with a Glock unless you firing some surplus (hard primered) submachine gun ammo or something similar. If this happens though, a simple Tap, Rack and Bang will get you going again.

In the CZ75 series, I have fired and own the CZ75 P-06 (.40 S&W). I have fired the CZ-75 full sized 9mm version and the CZ75 compact (9mm). All of them fit me reasonably well and I would not feel handicapped with any of them. The double stack magazines makes the grips a little bigger for me because of my smaller hands. Some shifting of the hand is sometimes required to run all the controls, especially during rapid magazine changes while competing. Today, I was at the range and being a hot day, I had a cooler packed with ice and a 12 pack of water in the trunk. The cooler leaked and my range bag got soaked. When I got home I found that my P-06 had been sitting in a sopping wet fleece holder all day. I took it apart and cleaned it right away and didn't find a speck of rust anywhere. The "Polycoat" finish applied to today's CZ, is pretty decent.
I do own a Tanfoglio TZ75, which is a CZ75 copy, I won't say "clone" because there are some minor differences. This TZ75 is one of the most accurate 9mm pistols that I own and the trigger is absolutely fantastic, in double action and especially in single action. I really enjoy shooting this pistol and I have a custom inside the waist band holster for it. However, it is an all steel pistol and I don't carry it often because my P225 is lighter. It is also prone to showing rust very rapidly when wet.

Now having said all this, let me say something else. Since everyones hands are shaped differently and everyone has different sized hands (i.e. short fingers, long fingers, fat fingers, etc.), you must actually hold the pistol and preferably shoot it before you can decide if it is the one for you. Only you can decide if a certain pistol will fulfill all your requirements.

Timmy,
I admit that I am a bit of a Luddite myself, preferring an all metal pistol even though I know that from an engineering standpoint there is nothing wrong with the polymer framed pistols out there. Since you enjoy and are so used to the 1911, may I suggest the Browning P35 or Hi-Power (which you may already be familiar with). It offers single action cocked and locked carry and the safety operates just like a 1911's. They are well liked by all who use them. The standard CZ-75 action also offers cocked and locked single action carry but is DA/SA and still has an all steel frame. They also make 1911's in 9mm now and many in Commander sized and smaller versions. When you have built up the muscle memory to operate one kind of action, it might be easier than transitioning to another type.

One added note: today 9mm ammo is available in a an almost bewildering range of choices. Bullet technology has progressed to the point that many cartridge manufacturers will almost guarantee bullet expansion in soft tissue with maximum retained bullet weight. Some even tout bullet expansion after it's having to penetrate several layers of clothing. What this boils down to is that today 9mm can virtually guarantee effective penetration with good expansion. Most of today's pistols will even effectively feed and fire a cartridge with a "flying ashtray" type of bullet (i.e. one with an extremely large crater for a hollow point).

xl_target wrote: When they retired these pistols, something like 30,000 of them, they were purchased by importers and resold in the US.

I wish it could happen here is india also and the police forces start retiring there so called old weapons to the civilians. They dont realise but they are sitting on huge financial potential, which they can use it to buy glocks for their own modernization.

XL, thanks a ton for sharing first this video and then for this detailed and excellent write up. Atleast while reading it i would njoi the feel of 9mm, i still cannt forge the feel i got while holding Beretta 9MM (dont remember the model) it and firing it in US range. Initially me and buddy had planned to fire only 25 each, but we ended up firing 50 each , wanted more but had pocket constraint

You are right XL having tried the G-19, Cz-75 and the Sig 226, maybe its because I have smaller hands but I find myself most accurate with the glock whereas The Cz came second and then the sig 226. However if I were to choose between the 3, I would choose the Cz-75 all metal pistol

Thanks,XL, for giving us a rundown on the pistols. I did spot a few CZ-75s here in 9mm.But, they are on the expensive side $1100-1300,used.Though much cheaper compared to India,still expensive.A nice deal kind of price is on the Israeli pistols.

The Barak 9mm and the Jericho 941FSL in .40. Both can be had for around $800. I am tempted very seriously.


Best-
Vikram

Vikram,
To put it mildly, the Barak's are not the most graceful looking pistols. However, the Jericho 941 has a classic, classic look. Called baby Desert Eagles, the mechanical design borrows a lot from the CZ-75 while its cosmetics are somewhat derived from the DE. Well, actually from the TZ-75 as Tanfoglio provided a lot of the parts for the initial runs. The Jericho's are certainly built tough enough to handle the .40 and more. They are an all steel pistol and IMI certainly didn't skimp on the amount of metal used inthe frame. I have not heard any negatives about them apart from some people complaining about the weight. On the plus side, if your Merkava tank brews up, you could probably use your Jericho to bludgeon your way out of it without hurting the pistol in any way.

The prices that you have quoted do seem high, especially if in US dollars. CZ prices here are about half or less than half of what you stated.

The FSL is the polymer framed model, isn't it? I have no experience with it.